Diamond District financing pivot prompts lawsuit seeking referendum

Diamond District outline 1 1

The 67-acre site is bordered by Arthur Ashe Boulevard, Hermitage Road, the interstate and the railroad tracks.

Less than 24 hours after authorizing a new financing plan for the ballpark-anchored Diamond District development, Richmond City Council and Mayor Levar Stoney have been hit with a lawsuit challenging the action.

Local attorney and activist Paul Goldman filed a lawsuit Thursday challenging council’s approval a day earlier of ordinances allowing the city to issue $170 million in bonds to finance the new stadium for the Richmond Flying Squirrels and infrastructure improvements for the $2.4 billion mixed-use development’s first phase.

The funding approach, which puts the city on the hook to repay the bonds should the stadium not be built or the larger development fail, is a change from a previous plan to issue non-obligation bonds through a community development authority (CDA) and with collateral from developer Diamond District Partners.

The move is projected to save the city $215 million in debt costs over the 30-year length of the loans, while also capturing $24 million in state sales tax incentives that are set to expire July 1. The $170 million in bonds would consist of $130 million in general obligation bonds to fund the ballpark and $40 million in lease revenue bonds for the infrastructure improvements.

BallparkDesign1 Aerial

A renderinig of the 10,000-seat stadium that would replace The Diamond.

Goldman, who has called for the bonds to be decided through a referendum of city voters, also filed a motion in Richmond Circuit Court seeking a preliminary injunction hearing and temporary restraining order to delay the bond issuance and provide direction from the court on how Goldman can properly petition and collect signatures to require a referendum. Goldman argues that such details are unclear in the city’s charter.

In an interview Monday, Goldman said he had requested those details from council and, if they weren’t provided, planned to file the lawsuit to get answers from the court. He said the amount of the bond issuance necessitates a referendum, but that state law only requires one with counties, not cities.

Paul Goldman

Paul Goldman

“If this was being done in the county, the voters would have the right of the referendum automatically. That’s state law. But cities, for some reason, like Richmond, it’s not automatic here,” Goldman said.

“What I’m asking is based on the fact that the counties can do this, and based on the fact that it’s the democratic way,” he said. “This is the same crowd that wanted the casino that nobody wanted. If it wasn’t for the referendum, there would be a casino.”

Goldman similarly challenged the proposed casino in South Richmond that city voters rejected in a referendum, twice.

In a statement Thursday, Lincoln Saunders, Richmond’s chief administrative officer, was dismissive of Goldman’s suit challenging the Diamond District ordinances.

Lincoln Saunders 1

Lincoln Saunders

“Paul Goldman is at it again,” Saunders said. “By filing a frivolous lawsuit that flies in the face of the will of the residents who have been very clear that not only do they want the Squirrels to remain in Richmond but desire the much needed development, housing and additional jobs that come along with building a world-class stadium.

“This meritless and undemocratic maneuver is yet another Goldman move to make Richmond lose the Squirrels and cost residents over $24 million. Needless to say, the City will continue the work and move this game-changing project forward,” Saunders said.

While he said the city charter does not specify the number of signatures required for a referendum or how they can be certified, Goldman said it does allow for citizens to petition for an “optional referendum,” a process that he said could play out in the time before the ordinances become legally effective.

If a referendum is put on the ballot in November, Goldman said the bonds could not be sold before then. The city is changing its funding approach in part to be able to issue the bonds in June, to start site work earlier and to capture the $24 million in state tax incentives before they expire in July.

The timing is integral to the city’s planned schedule to deliver the new stadium in time for the 2026 baseball season. Major League Baseball, which oversees minor-league venues like The Diamond and is requiring all pro venues to meet new facility standards, had imposed a 2025 deadline but is allowing Richmond more time in light of the project’s progress.

DD Aerial 240402

A recent conceptual rendering of the Diamond District along Arthur Ashe Boulevard. (City documents)

Goldman said the city and MLB should shoot for 2027 instead, to allow citizens time to weigh in on the funding change that was announced a month ago.

“Give us some time,” Goldman said. “There’s plenty of fiscally responsible ways to do this. There is a way to do it and get it done by 2027.”

Goldman’s lawsuit lists as defendants Mayor Stoney, all nine councilmembers, Circuit Court clerk Edward Jewett and city clerk Candice Reid. It alleges three counts including violations of the state constitution and city charter, and violation of Goldman’s First Amendment rights. It requests injunctive relief, precise language for the petition and a hearing on the three counts.

In addition to authorizing the bond issuance, the ordinances approved by council on Wednesday authorize the city to enter into an agreement with Diamond District Partners, the private development team led by Thalhimer Realty Partners and Loop Capital, to purchase and develop the land and non-ballpark portions of the first phase on their own dime.

The 10,000-seat baseball stadium would be developed by the Flying Squirrels’ ownership group and consultant Machete Group. The city would own the stadium.

City bonds would cover construction of the $110 million stadium as well as costs to design, acquire and equip it. The infrastructure bonds would be paid for with lease payments from the Flying Squirrels, which would total $66 million over 30 years.

Supporters of the new financing setup maintain that the savings to the city, as well as the popularity of the Scott’s Addition area and of the Richmond Flying Squirrels, make the risk to the city a safe bet. Opponents, such as Goldman, contend that the change is being pushed and rushed since the ordinances were introduced last month.

Diamond District outline 1 1

The 67-acre site is bordered by Arthur Ashe Boulevard, Hermitage Road, the interstate and the railroad tracks.

Less than 24 hours after authorizing a new financing plan for the ballpark-anchored Diamond District development, Richmond City Council and Mayor Levar Stoney have been hit with a lawsuit challenging the action.

Local attorney and activist Paul Goldman filed a lawsuit Thursday challenging council’s approval a day earlier of ordinances allowing the city to issue $170 million in bonds to finance the new stadium for the Richmond Flying Squirrels and infrastructure improvements for the $2.4 billion mixed-use development’s first phase.

The funding approach, which puts the city on the hook to repay the bonds should the stadium not be built or the larger development fail, is a change from a previous plan to issue non-obligation bonds through a community development authority (CDA) and with collateral from developer Diamond District Partners.

The move is projected to save the city $215 million in debt costs over the 30-year length of the loans, while also capturing $24 million in state sales tax incentives that are set to expire July 1. The $170 million in bonds would consist of $130 million in general obligation bonds to fund the ballpark and $40 million in lease revenue bonds for the infrastructure improvements.

BallparkDesign1 Aerial

A renderinig of the 10,000-seat stadium that would replace The Diamond.

Goldman, who has called for the bonds to be decided through a referendum of city voters, also filed a motion in Richmond Circuit Court seeking a preliminary injunction hearing and temporary restraining order to delay the bond issuance and provide direction from the court on how Goldman can properly petition and collect signatures to require a referendum. Goldman argues that such details are unclear in the city’s charter.

In an interview Monday, Goldman said he had requested those details from council and, if they weren’t provided, planned to file the lawsuit to get answers from the court. He said the amount of the bond issuance necessitates a referendum, but that state law only requires one with counties, not cities.

Paul Goldman

Paul Goldman

“If this was being done in the county, the voters would have the right of the referendum automatically. That’s state law. But cities, for some reason, like Richmond, it’s not automatic here,” Goldman said.

“What I’m asking is based on the fact that the counties can do this, and based on the fact that it’s the democratic way,” he said. “This is the same crowd that wanted the casino that nobody wanted. If it wasn’t for the referendum, there would be a casino.”

Goldman similarly challenged the proposed casino in South Richmond that city voters rejected in a referendum, twice.

In a statement Thursday, Lincoln Saunders, Richmond’s chief administrative officer, was dismissive of Goldman’s suit challenging the Diamond District ordinances.

Lincoln Saunders 1

Lincoln Saunders

“Paul Goldman is at it again,” Saunders said. “By filing a frivolous lawsuit that flies in the face of the will of the residents who have been very clear that not only do they want the Squirrels to remain in Richmond but desire the much needed development, housing and additional jobs that come along with building a world-class stadium.

“This meritless and undemocratic maneuver is yet another Goldman move to make Richmond lose the Squirrels and cost residents over $24 million. Needless to say, the City will continue the work and move this game-changing project forward,” Saunders said.

While he said the city charter does not specify the number of signatures required for a referendum or how they can be certified, Goldman said it does allow for citizens to petition for an “optional referendum,” a process that he said could play out in the time before the ordinances become legally effective.

If a referendum is put on the ballot in November, Goldman said the bonds could not be sold before then. The city is changing its funding approach in part to be able to issue the bonds in June, to start site work earlier and to capture the $24 million in state tax incentives before they expire in July.

The timing is integral to the city’s planned schedule to deliver the new stadium in time for the 2026 baseball season. Major League Baseball, which oversees minor-league venues like The Diamond and is requiring all pro venues to meet new facility standards, had imposed a 2025 deadline but is allowing Richmond more time in light of the project’s progress.

DD Aerial 240402

A recent conceptual rendering of the Diamond District along Arthur Ashe Boulevard. (City documents)

Goldman said the city and MLB should shoot for 2027 instead, to allow citizens time to weigh in on the funding change that was announced a month ago.

“Give us some time,” Goldman said. “There’s plenty of fiscally responsible ways to do this. There is a way to do it and get it done by 2027.”

Goldman’s lawsuit lists as defendants Mayor Stoney, all nine councilmembers, Circuit Court clerk Edward Jewett and city clerk Candice Reid. It alleges three counts including violations of the state constitution and city charter, and violation of Goldman’s First Amendment rights. It requests injunctive relief, precise language for the petition and a hearing on the three counts.

In addition to authorizing the bond issuance, the ordinances approved by council on Wednesday authorize the city to enter into an agreement with Diamond District Partners, the private development team led by Thalhimer Realty Partners and Loop Capital, to purchase and develop the land and non-ballpark portions of the first phase on their own dime.

The 10,000-seat baseball stadium would be developed by the Flying Squirrels’ ownership group and consultant Machete Group. The city would own the stadium.

City bonds would cover construction of the $110 million stadium as well as costs to design, acquire and equip it. The infrastructure bonds would be paid for with lease payments from the Flying Squirrels, which would total $66 million over 30 years.

Supporters of the new financing setup maintain that the savings to the city, as well as the popularity of the Scott’s Addition area and of the Richmond Flying Squirrels, make the risk to the city a safe bet. Opponents, such as Goldman, contend that the change is being pushed and rushed since the ordinances were introduced last month.

This story is for our paid subscribers only. Please become one of the thousands of BizSense Pro readers today!

Your subscription has expired. Renew now by choosing a subscription below!

For more informaiton, head over to your profile.

Profile


SUBSCRIBE NOW

 — 

 — 

 — 

TERMS OF SERVICE:

ALL MEMBERSHIPS RENEW AUTOMATICALLY. YOU WILL BE CHARGED FOR A 1 YEAR MEMBERSHIP RENEWAL AT THE RATE IN EFFECT AT THAT TIME UNLESS YOU CANCEL YOUR MEMBERSHIP BY LOGGING IN OR BY CONTACTING [email protected].

ALL CHARGES FOR MONTHLY OR ANNUAL MEMBERSHIPS ARE NONREFUNDABLE.

EACH MEMBERSHIP WILL ONLY FUNCTION ON UP TO 3 MACHINES. ACCOUNTS ABUSING THAT LIMIT WILL BE DISCONTINUED.

FOR ASSISTANCE WITH YOUR MEMBERSHIP PLEASE EMAIL [email protected]




Return to Homepage

POSTED IN Government

Editor's Picks

Subscribe
Notify of
guest

47 Comments
oldest
newest most voted
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Bruce Milam
Bruce Milam
5 months ago

The VCU Rams would also be using the ballpark. Would VCU be on the hook as lessee as well?what if the squirrels fail to pay their rent? Who is on the hook for lease payments?

Drew Harrison
Drew Harrison
4 months ago
Reply to  Bruce Milam

Good point, Bruce. Is “jointly and severally language” typical in contracts like this? Could this be another VCU Health debacle if the Squirrels jettison?

Everyone who regularly comments on this page was rightfully disgusted over that deal, one where one of the main proponents frequently argued that it was to grease the wheel of City Council as Jonathan uncovered in emails from his FOIA request.

I am a huge fan of private property rights, but the second public money gets involved, the deal is no longer private. Ideally, the developers should take all the risk.

Bill Foster
Bill Foster
5 months ago

Thank you, Paul, for taking action to serve as at least some sort of check on our corrupt mayor and his cronies.

Shawn Harper
Shawn Harper
5 months ago
Reply to  Bill Foster

Yes, at least SOMEONE is holding them accountable in a way.

St George Pinckney
St George Pinckney
5 months ago

Redskins Practice Field scam all over again.

Brett Themore
Brett Themore
5 months ago

This is why we can’t have nice things…

Shawn Harper
Shawn Harper
5 months ago
Reply to  Brett Themore

OMG the reason why Richmond “can’t have nice things” is exactly where the phrase originally comes from — you don’t have nice things when the inhabitants break them, so to speak.

If this all went off the way they said it would, it would not have been perfect, but it would have been “fine, okay, whatever…” but they on every measure have screwed things up! How can anyone not see this????

Connor Odell
Connor Odell
5 months ago

“Paul Goldman is at it again”

Shawn Harper
Shawn Harper
5 months ago
Reply to  Connor Odell

Brilliant riposte. Really explains the situation.

“City Hall has been at it again for years” is more like it.

Joey perry
Joey perry
5 months ago

So in other words he is making everything way more expensive than it already is. The housing supply and demand is so bad this is going to make prices of the units way more expensive if we don’t stop delaying everything the more we delay the worse prices will get all over the area. People like him make everything way more expensive than it already is. I’m so tired of Goldman and his antics of stopping everything to make cost of things more affordable no matter how bad inflation is. It’s just incredibly unproductive to keep doing it just makes… Read more »

Shawn Harper
Shawn Harper
5 months ago
Reply to  Joey perry

HOW can you blame Goldman when it is clear that city hall has fumbled the ball, and this is the most charitable way of putting it, for years and now putting a financially strained city govt at risk?

Craig Davis
Craig Davis
5 months ago
Reply to  Joey perry

professional gadfly

Shawn Harper
Shawn Harper
5 months ago
Reply to  Craig Davis

Just like old-school journalists who exposed corruption at the highest levels, or discovered pollution in our water supplies.

Barry O'Keefe
Barry O'Keefe
5 months ago

I’m curious what Goldman’s motivations are. This funding change has risks and benefits, which have been clearly evaluated and presented to the public, and approved by our elected officials. I believe there was a solid ethical case against the Casino development. I don’t see a case against this funding model or this development. In fact, an individual Richmonder, not representing any constituency, slowing down converting mostly empty parking lots in a heat island new housing and public green space in the middle of a housing and climate crisis represents a failure of justice to me. On what grounds should this… Read more »

Peter James
Peter James
5 months ago
Reply to  Barry O'Keefe

VERY well said, Barry. My question is – does Goldman legitimately have standing? Is there any chance this suit gets thrown out?

Ted Herm
Ted Herm
5 months ago
Reply to  Peter James

I’ve heard these lawsuits are par for the course with him. So hopefully the judge just throws this out and gets the groundbreaking started.

Shawn Harper
Shawn Harper
5 months ago
Reply to  Ted Herm

Oh, now it is merely the Goldman suit that is preventing groundbreaking???? That’s hilarious!!

Shawn Harper
Shawn Harper
5 months ago
Reply to  Peter James

This is a high chance his suit gets thrown out and is likely, as some have implied, a message-sending suit — and I think some of these posts and comments by the players suggest that they are a bit scared of the message being sent. Not everyone supports incompetence in this town.

Michael Morgan-Dodson
Michael Morgan-Dodson
5 months ago
Reply to  Peter James

I think as he is taxpayer and their is some confusion on requiring a referendum or not (as Charter is confusing and missing section AND conflicts with state statue), I think he has the right to ask the Court for clarification. Probably will rule state law applies and trumps so no referendum is required especially since Council voted for it already.

Shawn Harper
Shawn Harper
5 months ago

City hall has been ignoring law for a long time now.

Shawn Harper
Shawn Harper
5 months ago
Reply to  Barry O'Keefe

Oh boy are you throwing a lot junk together…. Sure, Goldman’s motivations may not be totally Don Quiote, he may have some political ambitions, sure — but at least he is not toxic like many in City Hall are. But the whole idea that Goldman is somehow to blame for things going slow is disingenuous at best. If we are terrified of a climate crisis we should rip everything up and put a forest right there. Building ANYTHING there is going to have a much bigger climate footprint than just leaving the spot there as is — pouring concrete is… Read more »

Craig Davis
Craig Davis
5 months ago
Reply to  Barry O'Keefe

he is a master of using litigation as a delay tactic.

Ted Herm
Ted Herm
5 months ago

I’m sorry but he’s so full of it. Dozens of people showed up in support of this on Wednesday. Also him saying “give us time we can do this fiscally responsibly” is a stalling tactic worthy of any politician, he just doesn’t want to be be labeled as the man trying to kill baseball in this city while this all resolves.

He wants the delay because he knows that all he has to do is wait until the squirrels and MiLB get tired and leave. If they do, he shares a massive part of the blame.

Shawn Harper
Shawn Harper
5 months ago
Reply to  Ted Herm

It certainly is true that it IS an effective weapon to say that someone “wants to kill baseball” even if it is used against people who want things to be better for Richmond as a whole and not some sliver of the town that demands that the city pay any cost necessary for baseball or ballet or whatever.

Shawn Harper
Shawn Harper
5 months ago
Reply to  Ted Herm

I also find it hilarious that there are voices trying to give this guy the blame for a process that CLEARLY has had zero to do with him and is heavy with obvious evidence of blame to be placed at the feet of those who who have managed the process since…… when exactly???? And if there is a further delay from today, do you really think an honest person could say with absolute certainty that it is this suit to blame, because, well, OF COURSE nothing will go wrong from here — I mean, it’s not like everything hasn’t run… Read more »

Augie Kahsar
Augie Kahsar
5 months ago

I think accountability is important, however I completely reject Mr. Goldman conflating the casino project with a new ballpark. They are not the same. A ballpark is an absolute good to the community, providing affordable entertainment to the general public. It is family friendly, and does not provide a breeding ground for unsavory actors. I was never more proud of Richmond than when we rejected the casino, and then again when we rejected it a second time with a stronger majority. I have no doubt Richmond would support a ballpark referendum with an overwhelming majority. As it is written, “If… Read more »

Shawn Harper
Shawn Harper
5 months ago
Reply to  Augie Kahsar

OMG “If you build it, they will come” You DO realize that that has been proven to be at best an erroneous statement, ESPECIALLY when municipal governments are the ones saying it? That is why Sixth Street Marketplace was such a success, correct — because they “built it.” Even the private sector, even when they have no government incentives, makes BIG, crippling mistakes — but at least when that happens, it is the owners and their lenders that are on the hook, and not taxpayers. Time and again there have been examples of government doing things well out of their… Read more »

Shawn Harper
Shawn Harper
5 months ago
Reply to  Augie Kahsar

OMG I just realized you wrote “If you build it….” as if it were Scripture!!!

OMG, this really is a religion.

Shawn Harper
Shawn Harper
5 months ago

I think THIS is the reason for all the “Moral Outrage” being expressed here. “In our forthcoming Brookings book, Sports, Jobs, and Taxes, we and 15 collaborators examine the local economic development argument from all angles: case studies of the effect of specific facilities, as well as comparisons among cities and even neighborhoods that have and have not sunk hundreds of millions of dollars into sports development. In every case, the conclusions are the same. A new sports facility has an extremely small (perhaps even negative) effect on overall economic activity and employment. No recent facility appears to have earned anything approaching… Read more »

Ted Herm
Ted Herm
5 months ago
Reply to  Shawn Harper

People are rightfully indignant here because the public by and large wants the baseball team to stay. The plan they showed made sense, saved the city money, and even better they finally got moving on it. Only for it to potentially be pulled out from under us with a lawsuit. I don’t think people are looking into the intricacies of stadium financing and touting this based on those merits.

They are looking at it with the goal of keeping baseball in the city and accepting the level of risk assessed for this.

Shawn Harper
Shawn Harper
5 months ago
Reply to  Ted Herm

People who religiously want [Baseball, Hockey…] at all costs tend to be a minority, but a loud minority. The arguments quickly become similar to when someone would object to a govt financing a new cathedral in centuries past: “YOU are a Bad Person, YOU don’t want [something advertised as good], but “The People” want it. Why so scared of a referendum? Granted, it should’ve been done many years ago. “They showed it saved money” ….ho…ho…ho…. Compared to what? Compared to a worse senario? They could’ve hired ME to consultant on that argument — a child could throw such a case… Read more »

Morgan Greer
Morgan Greer
5 months ago

City representatives could have responded stating “we don’t comment on pending litigation”, instead they chose to deride Mr. Goldman and accuse him of trying to cost residents over $24 million with his actions. The original debt structure was designed up to ensure that it didn’t cost taxpayers anything. If anyone is potentially putting residents on the hook for future financial obligations, it’s city government (which doesn’t exactly have the best track record when it comes to flashy development projects). This massive change in course by city government is happening incredibly fast – especially when compared to the months/years that city… Read more »

Shawn Harper
Shawn Harper
5 months ago
Reply to  Morgan Greer

The city should be embarrassed to accuse ANYONE else in the city for causing city hall to misspend money. And anyone who believes them or pretends to believe them, well, same.

Shawn Harper
Shawn Harper
5 months ago
Reply to  Morgan Greer

Remember “The Mayor Wants This” from the MCV fiasco?

Craig Davis
Craig Davis
5 months ago

Paul Goldman has killed more baseball dreams than the curve ball!

Shawn Harper
Shawn Harper
5 months ago
Reply to  Craig Davis

Oh, he is a ubiquitous dream-killer?

This is a typical attack against people who ask people to look at facts — “no…look at the DREAM…”

How is watching baseball a dream?

You can already do that.

My dream is finally making Richmond a well run city, not sitting around in the middle of the day eating hotdogs.

Michael Boyer
Michael Boyer
5 months ago
Reply to  Craig Davis

Where’s your next comedy act?

Shawn Harper
Shawn Harper
4 months ago
Reply to  Michael Boyer

He’s here all week!

Joseph Thompson
Joseph Thompson
5 months ago

You have to give it to Paul I think he’s right. The project now costs hundreds millions more and the City says that they’re actually saving money?

Shawn Harper
Shawn Harper
4 months ago

And you gotta give it to all the shills promoting it as somehow the right thing to do…… they are certainly earning their silver.

Drew Harrison
Drew Harrison
4 months ago

Given the city’s track record, Goldman is doing the right thing. That said, if this goes to referendum, it would likely win soundly. Taking this to a vote would delay the project by a year. MLB could pull the Squirrels over it. Heck, they probably should have pulled them years ago with how inept the city has been at planning this project. We are going on 15 years of a stadium to replace the Diamond.

Tim Baird
Tim Baird
4 months ago

As a citizen, Paul may be entitled to file the lawsuit, but I don’t think he is entitled to an injunction unless he can post a bond that will protect the city from the loss of state funding if there is a delay. And in the absence of a bond, his suit may quickly become moot.

Shawn Harper
Shawn Harper
4 months ago
Reply to  Tim Baird

Interesting opinion. I agree that that Paul should not be allowed to cost the taxpayers any money — I think an unbiased judge should be able to look at the suit and determine very quickly the merits and either throw it out and make it the mere attention-getting act it probably is, that is, draw further attention to the incompetence that has the bully pulpit to always declare that it is doing the best, smartest, fairest things when it is just the brainchild of incompetent power hunger bandits who want to move on to higher office — OR —- let… Read more »

Mike Frizzel
Mike Frizzel
4 months ago

Goldman is a hero, Saunders is a leech on our city.

Shawn Harper
Shawn Harper
4 months ago
Reply to  Mike Frizzel

I wouldn’t go so far regarding Saunders — Saunders is an employee of the city and has to do what his masters the political science majors tell him to do. Indeed, the people who stand to benefit the most from whatever outcome the city manages to facilitate, and they are likely to create as few winners as possible given their track record of putting all kinds of costly provisions into things — are not really leeches, but very hard working active people who are responding to INCENTIVES that the people who manage the city choose to dangle out there for… Read more »

Kevin Randesi
Kevin Randesi
4 months ago

To think that 60 miles north of here in Fredericksburg they were able to build a baseball stadium that cost about $80 million less than what is being proposed in Richmond – and done privately too with just an annual contribution by the City of Fredericksburg. That stadium has been in operation since 2021.

Roger Turner
Roger Turner
4 months ago
Reply to  Kevin Randesi

Not an apples to apples comparison. That stadium is only built for 5K fans and not 10K. Also the cost of building anything has increased 50%+ in the last five years. But yes if Richmond would have pulled the trigger 5 years ago they probably would have saved $50 million at least. There is a cost to “doing nothing”. The ideal time to build it would have been 2010-2013 when nothing was thriving and construction would have cheap but it’s hard to be optimistic in down times.